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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:07 am 
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It's been several years but UTSource supplied 'good' parts compared to some of the scratched-up 'used', 'pulls', and 'refurbs' you might see from other vendors back then.

BTW, speaking of parts... I was pleasantly surprised to receive five (5) W65C22S6TPG-14 chips from China last week ($10.99 total, including shipping) which looked very nice and tested good at 8-MHz on my new SBC + Programmer prototype (see below). It was very exciting (for me) to be able to run Nick Gammon's G-Pascal package at 8-MHz with bit-banged 38,400 bps serial after replacing the Rockwell chips on the board with WDC chips.


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Last edited by Michael on Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:39 am 
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Paganini wrote:
plasmo wrote:
Received the "barebones/minimal 6 chip 6502 computer ic kit" yesterday and the result is abysmal.

On this topic, has anyone had any experience ordering from UTSOURCE? I have run across references to them a few times in the context of "where can I get parts when Mouser/DigiKey can't help me in this time of supply chain shortage?" I took a risk and placed an order with them. I expect it will take another week or so for the order to arrive, since the parts ship from China. However, I think they might be legit, as they sent me an e-mail cancelling and refunding me for one part that was out of stock. I don't think the guys peddling fake chips ever run out. :D

I used to recommend UTSource but after a few recent setbacks and price hike after ordering, I don't recommend it anymore, but I still order for myself. UTSource is still a cut above eBay and their refund policy is excellent. Don't buy W65C02 from them because they are re-labelled 6502, some of them are not even CMOS. They may run to 4MHz, but not 14MHz.
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:30 am 
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Hi all,

Apologies for the delay in getting back to this post,
So many responses where to start,

I'll start with Chads reply,
Quote:
- No new-old stock chips, everything must be easily obtained from Mouser or Digikey in mass quantity.

If one wants to make the lowest cost project / kit, whether for sale or personal use, then old parts are probably the way to go....with some risk of receiving dud parts. New, WDC, parts from Mouser are not cheap. One will require new parts to run at higher speeds.
Quote:
- Chip flexibility as much as possible, especially with RAM and ROM chips. Multiple types/sizes can be plugged into the same socket and will function exactly the same.

I managed to get away with "strandard" parts like the 6264 (8kbyte) / 62256 (32kbye) (55ns) and Microchip SST39SF010/020/040. I saw no point in allowing for things like 27Cxxx EPROM's and am not a fan of the 28 series EEPROM's. I did not see this as a requirement.
Quote:
No CPLD's and FPGA's, mainly because I cannot find a good way to program current ones from Linux (as I refuse to use Windows long-term).

I find the whole Windows vs Linux thing interesting, but that a topic for another day. I'm a Windows user....
I think CPLD's, specifically the (MAX7000)EPM7128 / Microchip AT1508, are the way to go.
Forget Wincupl, Use the Altera (Intel) tools and draw schematics and simulate. I can't program HDL/VHDL....on my leaning list.
The CPLD above is actually quite limited. Just enough for basic VGA, complex address decoding with latches for high address etc.
Much more efficient than breadboarding and fewer mistakes in PCB layout. EPM7128 is obsolete, but low cost and still available. Microchip AT1508 is more expensive and still in production. If anybody wants to know more just ask.
Quote:
- I/O devices must also be easy to obtain. I have picked PS/2 Keyboards and VGA monitors which are both easy to interface and easy to obtain from Amazon, Walmart, and Newegg.

PS2 keyboards are becoming hard to buy in stores in Australia.
Quote:
- Must be useful and can play games, so using *only* a 16x2 LCD would not be enough in the whole scheme of things.
- Must be self-reliant, no need to use with a modern PC, serial connections, or bootstrapping, everything needed is on the ROM. Having serial connection or other means of communicating would be merely a bonus.

Agree, need to have video either VGA, TMS9918 or similar.
Quote:
- Power supply comes from USB wall charger, which everyone and their grandma has to charge their phones.

Your logic is sound as everyone has 20 of these lying around their house, but personally I'm not a fan. Other replies have made valid comments on this.
Personally I would prefer to regulate down to the required voltage on a PCB rather than feed it in from an external source.
My design will end up requiring around 18V as I want 15V to be able to power some A-to-D/D-to-A parts (on plugin cards) and audio amplifier requires 10-22V.
Quote:
- Solder-it-yourself with helpful user guide which also instructs on how both the hardware and software work. Educational in nature. I think the guide for the Dodo is an excellent model of user-friendliness mixed with education!

I was not planning solder it your self as I have used SMT for the resistors / capacitors and power supply.
Quote:
- Total cost under $100, but I think I managed to get mine to $75 comfortably by not using a 6522 VIA on the main-board.

The price of a board is tricky. Has anybody calculated the cost of WDC parts? (Let's use Mouser 1 piece price)
W65C22N6TPG-14 USD10.5
W65C02S6TPG-14 USD10.75
AS6C6264-55PCN USD4.03 (8kbyte)
AS6C62256-55PCN USD4.10 (32kbyte)
AS6C4008-55PCN USD6.38 (512kbyte)
SST39SF010A-70-4C-PHE USD2.92 (128kbyte)
SST39SF040-70-4C-PHE USD3.91 (512kbyte)

Depending on your design you are already at USD30.
In my design I have 1 x 62256, 3 x 6264, 2 x SST39SF040A and 1 x AS6C4008-55PCN, but I could drop one SST39SF040A and the AS6C4008-55PCN leaving it to the buyer to buy later.
I thought of having the PCB assembled in China (I already have several projects in production in China.) and shipping it without the major IC's.
I would fit tested CPLD's and AY-3-8910. Why ship WDC part from USA to Australia and back again. Make it an option, with or without major parts.
All parts socketed of course.
(Another topic we could spend hours on is how do the Chinese make certain things so cheap. I often see items on Ebay / Aliexpress where the parts from Mouser cost more than the item.)
Quote:
And you? Could I ask you the same question Andre?

I guess like many of you here I wanted to build my own. That was part of the challenge. I've never bought kits even when it came to 8051, AVR, ARM etc. I would just study the datasheet and make a PCB.
As an electronics engineer getting started was easier. If I were a programmer or someone with no real hardware/software background then I would probably have started with a kit and progressed from there.
The choice of kit would come down to what I could afford.
I would probably buy an assembled SBC if I had no assembly equipment / skills.
I would want some type of screen (VGA/TMS9918 etc.) and keyboard otherwise your programing options are limited.
Quote:
cbmeeks wrote:
Hope this isn't too OT but someone mentioned that kits aren't the target audience for the people on this forum...I think there is really a nice market for a "ready-made" 6502 computer that is cheap and somewhat powerful.
Quote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
That has been something that has come up around here again and again. As always, the idea ultimately collapses from “design-by-committee” disease. I know that the idea goes back some 20 years and other than Daryl’s SBC series, has not come to fruition.

I like these thoughts but agree that there are problems when it comes to “design-by-committee”.
Not having a common platform is something that holds everyone back.
If I were to ask, how many of you are either busy writing or have intension to write your own DOS, BASIC, graphics driver, KERNAL, etc. in the near future.
I would have to raise my hand to most of the above...as time allows.
We're all writing these things in isolation and from scratch and even though code is shared via GitHub or similar, how often do you re-use other peoples code?
Probably not that often because it's not compatible with your hardware or has features that you don't want/need.

Lots to think about.
Andre


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:05 am 
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Andre wrote:
Not having a common platform is something that holds everyone back.

This goal has proven elusive over the last 25 years, on this forum (including the Delphi forum Mike ran before getting the phpBB forum up here on the actual 6502.org site), and the Yahoo forum (which used to be quite active before it was effectively destroyed by spammers, and years later was migrated to groups.io at https://groups.io/g/6502ag since Yahoo Groups closed, but the old messages have not been migrated over).

Adding to what BDD said about "design by committee:"  What was happening, back when the minimum lot price of custom PCBs was too high for common hobbyists, was that someone would start a topic asking basically, "If we make a board design for a group order, what does everyone want?"  The discussions would get more and more outlandish, with people wanting to add everything high-end PCs had (that's only a small exaggeration), and it never got done.  In spite of the fact that everyone wanted such a board, sharp disagreements about what should be on it often (always?) resulted in slight hostilities.  After everyone kind of forgot about it and forgot their hostilities, someone new would come in and re-start the cycle, proposing a simple board, and again it would gradually go from a hobbyist/workbench/educational thing back to something that would take a team of engineers untold man-years to complete.

Then Daryl (forum name "8BIT") wisely bypassed the system and quietly made up his own SBC-2 board on his own and told everyone here, "I have it available. You want one?" and got something like 50 orders and shipped actual boards.

Quote:
If I were to ask, how many of you are either busy writing or have intention to write your own DOS, BASIC, graphics driver, KERNAL, etc. in the near future.
I would have to raise my hand to most of the above...as time allows.
We're all writing these things in isolation and from scratch and even though code is shared via GitHub or similar, how often do you re-use other people's code?
Probably not that often because it's not compatible with your hardware or has features that you don't want/need.

Based on experience and on observation from being on these forums for decades, I think the best that can be hoped for is that the kit be simple, to get someone started, and later they can start getting into video and other things that are not beginner territory.  There's software like EhBASIC which is apparently quite portable and the only things you'll have to modify for different hardware are the routines for things like outputting a character on the display and scanning a keyboard.  I expect others' DOSes' code bulk is probably pretty portable too, and only the routines for actually interfacing to the memory card, disc drive, etc. would need modifying.  (FWIW, I started a topic on super-simple file systems for flash memory at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7009 .)

Various enthusiasts' desired applications may be incompatible too.  For example, someone started a topic to "design by committee" an OS we could standardize on, and one of his beginning premises was that all I/O had to go through OS calls.  Right away I myself had a problem with that, as my realtime applications require programs to have immediate, instant access to I/O, and going through OS calls is absolutely not acceptable for this kind of applications.

So...I don't know if there's any ideal solution to this; but we need to learn from history.  My experience says modularity is always beneficial.  It makes updating simpler because a desired addition does not require starting over.  It also makes the project more manageable.  And in the context of this topic, makes it easier to accommodate a wider array of potential users.  It allows introducing the basic unit before all the extras are ready or even thought of.

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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:13 am 
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It might be worth noting that the RC2014 computer has been successful enough that the inventor and supplier was able to give up their day job. It's a backplane design, which makes it very flexible, and there are even 6502 CPU cards for it.

But as noted, it is one person's vision and implementation. They may well have been in discussions and learnt from them, but it wasn't a committee.

One thing to note about the various NOS parts available online from various sellers: there is uncertainty, but if you buy in volume and do your own testing, you can be a trusted resupplier (if that's your aim.) There's a world of difference between parts claiming to be something, and parts which have passed a test.


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:55 pm 
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BigEd wrote:
One thing to note about the various NOS parts available online from various sellers: there is uncertainty, but if you buy in volume and do your own testing, you can be a trusted resupplier (if that's your aim.) There's a world of difference between parts claiming to be something, and parts which have passed a test.

I thought I would check out Bill's observations so I ordered ten (10) W65C02S8P-14 CPU's ($13.01) and five (5) W65C22S6TPG-14 VIA's ($9.46) from one vendor and ten (1) 39SF010A 128-KiB Flash ROM's ($9.36) from another vendor. Results were good and bad;

W65C02S8P-14 CPU

All ten CPU's were nicely marked and tested good at 1-MHz and 2-MHz but failed at 4-MHz. So bad news is they're not WDC chips but good news is I seem to have ten 'free' mismarked 65C02P2 chips after receiving a full refund. Possible "give-aways" with a PCB purchase.

W65C22S6TPG-14 VIA

The five VIA chips were nicely marked and tested good but the pins had been cut short and the chips would just barely seat into a machined pin socket. I requested and received a full refund for the VIA chips.

39SF010A 128K Flash ROM

The SST 39SF010A chips were nicely marked and all tested good with manufacturer ID returning the correct BF B5 code. I would normally buy these from Mouser but they appear to have increased in price from $1.70 (last year) to $2.92 (now) and you still have to add shipping. This is still much better than the $12+ price plus shipping for AT28C256 EEPROM's.

Interesting experience. Have fun guys. Mike


Last edited by Michael on Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:59 pm 
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Nice experiment! It's crucial that you ask for a refund - that makes it much lower risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:17 am 
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Hi all,

I've been running some numbers on my 6502 project.
There are some photos on previous posts if you have not seen it.

Would you pay USD200 (or 199 if you prefer) for a main board with the following specification.
Bare in mind that there will be a significant DHL/Fedex shipping cost from Australia.

65C02 Computer Specification

WDC 65C02 (5MHz)
WDC 65C22N
WDC 65C51 (5V CMOS serial port…connect to 5V FTDI USB-UART cable not supplied)

512K BOOT FLASH (8K banked)
32K SRAM

VGA
Monochrome
Resolution: 256 x 240
7680 bytes Video RAM Read/Write
7680 bytes Video RAM (page write only)

PS2 Keyboard
(Memory mapped AVR uController)

Game Port
2 x SNES game ports memory mapped / decoded by CPLD

Audio
2 x AY-3-8910 (controlled by 65C22)
LM380 audio amplifier
Audio jack connector

Power Supply (on PCB)
Input 18Vdc (1A max)
5V 3A
15V 1A (limited by heat dissipation of TO-263 package and 1A total input current limitation)

I/O
5 x 50 pin edge connector for expansion
2 x 20 pin headers with 32 I/O pins from AY-3-8910’s

Optional Extras not included at this price (sockets fitted on PCB)

8K SRAM (I think most people would fit this)
512K SRAM (8K banked) (I think most people would fit this)
512K FLASH (8K banked) (maybe)
Real Time Clock (DS1511Y+) (maybe)


Some notes,

It will not be available in kit form due to the use of SMT parts.
All IC's socketed.
All parts new/modern/WDC/in production except CPLD's (MAX7000 series) and AY-3-8910. (CPLD's and AY-3-8910 will be tested...if it plays a tune it works...) CPLD could be modern/in production at some additional cost.

An option that may or may not reduce cost is to sell the assembled board with only CPLD's and AY-3-8910 fitted. It's up to the buyer to source the rest, but old/slow parts probably won't work at 5MHz so this option may be more hassle than it is worth.

Let's keep replies simple. I'm sure we could pull apart the specification and find plenty of reasons why it does not suit a particular use case or personal preference. The specification is the specification. If there is something that you would have liked to add, turn it into add-on card. I already have a few like SD card, TMS9918A and prototype card. It's already a sizeable PCB at 170x220mm, 4-layer.

You either like it or you don't. You would buy it or you would not.
If you have questions please ask.

This specification is a slight upgrade from my current board.
The 5V power supply will go from 2A to 3A.
The 15V regulator is new. (for future ADC / DAC / OPAMP circuits on plugin cards)
The SNES game ports are new.
I will probably make this version for my own use anyway as a last update to this project.
Future work will focus on plugin cards and software as time and money allow.

One more thing, though I've done a fair bit of software in C and assembler using CC65/CA65, it's not in particularly usable state.
Bottom line is, if you're not comfortable writing and debugging at a very low level then this is probably is not for you.
I don't think this applies to most of the readers of this post. It will take some time and probably the efforts of initial users to create things like emulators, kernels, file systems etc.
The hardware on this board is substantial and fairly complex with 2 CPLD's and a small uController. I have a glitch on power up that, occasionally, requires a manual reset to restart the system. I have not had the time to fix it. It's not a big deal to me. Fixing it may be simple or may not possible at all without a redesign. To date, after hundreds if not thousands of hours of software development, this is the only issue that I am aware of. The CPLD files and uController source would be available if people want to tinker. (CPLD designs are schematics not HDL/VHDL so anybody with a reasonable understanding of digital logic should be able to make changes.)

There's a lot to digest. Let's keep replies simple and on topic.
Let me know what you think.
Andre


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:15 pm 
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Andre wrote:
I've been running some numbers on my 6502 project.
There are some photos on previous posts if you have not seen it.

Would you pay USD200 (or 199 if you prefer) for a main board with the following specification.
Bare in mind that there will be a significant DHL/Fedex shipping cost from Australia.
I really like the idea, particularly as your kit has video, sound, keyboard and game controllers.

The short answer to would I pay USD200 (closer to 300 after shipping) is probably not. That works out to about R6000 in South African money and that's a significant chunk of cash.

On the other hand this is, I guess, not a typical answer as the exchange rate is horribly against me. I mean I'd really like something 65xx that meets all the criteria I mentioned above and that also doesn't see me designing it from scratch. My only generally usable 65 device at the moment is a W65C816SXB and frankly it's kinda boring.

What I've been thinking about while looking at this forum - and slowly plodding along with my own design - is to use someone's existing SBC schematic, PCB it up with the components that I do have try and do fun stuff with their already existing software. Of course what's actually happened every time I've thought this is that I've been missing a crucial piece. And then stopped myself from making changes that would make it incompatible with the original authors spec / idea.

I'll probably have to come and clean this message up later once the power is back (sent from my phone) but hopefully this ramble offers some perspective.

Andrew!


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:14 pm 
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Andre wrote:
Hi all,

I've been running some numbers on my 6502 project.
There are some photos on previous posts if you have not seen it.

Would you pay USD200 (or 199 if you prefer) for a main board with the following specification.
Bare in mind that there will be a significant DHL/Fedex shipping cost from Australia.


I've been thinking for a long time about making my Ruby 6502 (actually, probably the '816) board available as a kit (it's all through hole).

But there seems so much against me - cost is just one factor, finding time to buy the parts, get the PCBs store the parts then source suitable boxes to ship it out in ....

Then there's the hideous reality of "Brexit" which is doing no-one any favours - that means that for anyone outside the UK shipping costs and import/customs dutys are a real thing. But then again no different from me if I ever wanted to buy a kit, etc. from the US, so that makes it fair, right? (Not really).

Then what level of "kit"? I need to pre-program GALs and the ATmega - test them on system - test the memory chip, etc. so making up a test platform with ZIF sockets would be a thing too.

And then .... The actual kit? I have a couple of versions of my system - one the main board plus plug-in key keypad and LCD, can also use a serial connection to a dumb or "smart" terminal, but the smart terminal is Linux only right now. Then there's the "backplane" version with "slots" for "stuff" like video card (replaces the keypad/LCD) and other peripherals (SPI, I2C, GPIO) so the variants soon add up.

So it starts to become somewhat more a challenge than a fun thing to do. Or maybe not? Can't quite say right now as I've not tried it. Maybe I (and we) ought to just "suck it and see?" ...

Going back to "would I buy ... " Probably not, but mostly because I have my own and also because I've been using the 6502 since 78 and made a few little systems in the early 80s (doesn't stop me desiring a KIM/SYM/Aim-65 though) ...

Hmm..

-Gordon

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See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:28 pm 
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Andre wrote:
Would you pay USD200 (or 199 if you prefer) for a main board with the following specification...

Not me.

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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:14 pm 
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Andre wrote:
Would you pay USD200 (or 199 if you prefer) for a main board with the following specification.
Bare in mind that there will be a significant DHL/Fedex shipping cost from Australia.


Not a chance!

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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:15 pm 
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I think the people here will not be typical purchasers of such a kit - and that really doesn't mean that there's no market. The people here, especially those who spend a lot of time here, have probably already built what they'd want to, or are in the middle of designing and building. The people to reach are the people interested in something new, perhaps interested in their first SBC or their first 6502 system.

So, you'll see some people saying they won't buy, but that's not really giving any information.


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:16 pm 
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Andre wrote:
Hi all,

I've been running some numbers on my 6502 project.
There are some photos on previous posts if you have not seen it.

Would you pay USD200 (or 199 if you prefer) for a main board with the following specification.
Bare in mind that there will be a significant DHL/Fedex shipping cost from Australia.


I'll add one more thing here - I don't think "we" are your target audience for this - in the same way "we" were not the target for Ben Eaters project, but that didn't stop him selling 100s if not 1000s of his kits ...

So never say never ... (is my motto here!)

Cheers,

-Gordon

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See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/


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 Post subject: Re: Current 6502 Kits
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:45 pm 
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drogon wrote:
I'll add one more thing here - I don't think "we" are your target audience for this - in the same way "we" were not the target for Ben Eaters project, but that didn't stop him selling 100s if not 1000s of his kits ...

True that. However, Ben Eater’s kits don’t cost $200. Of course, they are basic stuff...not a lot of I/O, for example. Plus his is a slow-running system. It’s hard to make an accurate comparison given the differences between Eater’s product and what André is proposing.

For perspective, I’ve got about $100 invested in POC V1.3, which cost includes the SCSI host adapter. V1.3 is 65C816-powered, has 128K of RAM and runs at 16 MHz. Your Ruby system is also 65C816-powered and runs as fast (I think), plus has more RAM. No criticism intended toward anything André is proposing, but $200 plus shipping seems to be a lot to pay for an eight-bit system running at a relatively sedate 5 MHz. I don’t know where all the cost lies, but if it were me, I’d be looking for ways to get that price down.

BigEd wrote:
So, you'll see some people saying they won't buy, but that's not really giving any information.

Well, it does imply that perhaps André is targeting the wrong audience, eh?

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