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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:11 pm 
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Martin_H wrote:
Interestingly, the 1802 was an eight-bit that had sixteen-bit registers on chip. But it couldn't load them directly; all data had to pass through the D accumulator via eight bit put and get instructions. So both the 6502 and 1802 spent a fair amount of time moving data through the accumulator into the address registers.

The 1802's performance was terrible compared to that of the 6502 though.

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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:47 pm 
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dmsc wrote:
But this also meant that the 6502 was a dead end - there were very few opportunities for making a faster successor without completely changing the architecture, because it was tied to the RAM speed, and RAM did not increased speed at the same pace as processors.

Except the 6502 family is not a dead end. If it were, Western Design Center would not be in business. In fact, it is estimated that the 65C02 in ASIC form is produced at the rate of several hundred million pieces per year.

As for a faster successor, the current version of the W65C02S with a 0.6µ TSMC core is many times faster than the original NMOS 6502. The 65C02 is officially rated at 14 MHz, and readily exceeds 20 MHz in a practical circuit. Other than the addition of some new instructions, the ISA of the 65C02 is the same as the 6502 of 40-odd years ago.

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Martin_H
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:53 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
The 1802's performance was terrible compared to that of the 6502 though.

True as the 1802's clock cycle efficiency is bad, it takes eight clock cycles to make one machine cycle! It's instruction set is pretty squirrelly and there's no stack at all. But it runs Forth, so you can bury the weirdness.

On the plus side. NASA chose the 1802 for the Galileo mission, so it did go to Jupiter. The built-in DMA controller and I/O lines have some merit as well. Plus you can put LED's on the N0, N1, N2, and Q lines for some blinkenlights.
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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:08 am 
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Martin_H wrote:
GARTHWILSON wrote:
The 1802's performance was terrible compared to that of the 6502 though.

True as the 1802's clock cycle efficiency is bad, it takes eight clock cycles to make one machine cycle! It's instruction set is pretty squirrelly and there's no stack at all. But it runs Forth, so you can bury the weirdness.

On the plus side. NASA chose the 1802 for the Galileo mission, so it did go to Jupiter. The built-in DMA controller and I/O lines have some merit as well. Plus you can put LED's on the N0, N1, N2, and Q lines for some blinkenlights.

Most instructions take 16 clock cycles, and some take 24. I seem to remember it was rad-hard though, and low-power, making it attractive for spacecraft. Having so many internal registers meant that for minimal jobs, you didn't have to use any RAM.

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dmsc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:49 am 
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Hi!

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
dmsc wrote:
But this also meant that the 6502 was a dead end - there were very few opportunities for making a faster successor without completely changing the architecture, because it was tied to the RAM speed, and RAM did not increased speed at the same pace as processors.

Except the 6502 family is not a dead end. If it were, Western Design Center would not be in business. In fact, it is estimated that the 65C02 in ASIC form is produced at the rate of several hundred million pieces per year.

As for a faster successor, the current version of the W65C02S with a 0.6µ TSMC core is many times faster than the original NMOS 6502. The 65C02 is officially rated at 14 MHz, and readily exceeds 20 MHz in a practical circuit. Other than the addition of some new instructions, the ISA of the 65C02 is the same as the 6502 of 40-odd years ago.


When I said "dead end" I was referring to advancing the architectures to 16 bit and beyond. Your comment sort of proves my point, even today - that people still uses the 6502 in microcontroller applications - you don't have faster designs.

Compare the 20MHz 65C02 at 0.6um with the 100MHz Pentium, the 80MHz PowerPC 601, and even the old, low power 16C84 PIC (at 1.2um) ran at 20MHz.

Of course, as a good and simple microcontroller, the 65C02 has a place!

Have Fun!
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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:00 am 
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dmsc wrote:
Compare the 20MHz 65C02 at 0.6um with the 100MHz Pentium, the 80MHz PowerPC 601, and even the old, low power 16C84 PIC (at 1.2um) ran at 20MHz.

WDC has said that they have a licensee running an '02 in an ASIC at over 200MHz. That was probably ten years ago. I have not seen any updates to know if they still are, or if they've further increased the clock rate since then. Obviously the memory, I/O, and other microprocessor support have to be all onboard the same chip, never running the processor's buses off-chip. It's a microcontroller.

Oh, and BTW, a 20MHz PIC16C84 would be about half the speed of a 20MHz 65c02, because of the 02's better instruction set, the fact that it doesn't need inefficient page and bank switching, etc.. I speak from plenty of experience on these two.

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BillG
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:26 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
Oh, and BTW, a 20MHz PIC16C84 would be about half the speed of a 20MHz 65c02, because of the 02's better instruction set, the fact that it doesn't need inefficient page and bank switching, etc.. I speak from plenty of experience on these two.[/color]


At 80 MHz, an SX52 is like riding a skateboard on a freeway.

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litwr
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:08 pm 
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dmsc wrote:
This are the exact words from the 6502 programming manual:

Even Programming the 65816 by WDC calls this matter rather in elusive manner.
Quote:
The 6502 has a number of features which the less enthusiastic might be inclined to call bugs or quirks.

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litwr
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:14 pm 
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BillG wrote:
The 6502 version is not even twice as fast ...

Thank you very much for your neat code. You have proved that for this case the 6800 is not 100% slower but only 77%. Your next two examples are a bit "uneasy" for me. The idea to use bytes for signed two byte arithmetic seems very contrived for me. IMHO it is possible to speed it up a bit for the 6502 but two accumulators generally give some advantage for the 6800 for two byte arithmetic. I am sure, for instance, that division for the 6800 is faster than for the 6502. The FOR-loop statement code is too large for me and it relies on a compiler... You know that the Z80 can be even faster than the 6502 at the same frequency but generally it is more than 2 times slower. IMHO we need more plain algorithms. I can propose several quite simple calculations for the 6502, it will be interesting to compare them with their implementations for the 6800.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6295

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BillG
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:04 am 
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litwr wrote:
BillG wrote:
The 6502 version is not even twice as fast ...

Thank you very much for your neat code. You have proved that for this case the 6800 is not 100% slower but only 77%.


Consider the following hypothetical scenario...

My manager walked into my office the other day while I was napping at my desk.

She gave me a knudge and said, "Hey, wake up! We have a problem!"

"Wha... wha... what?" I replied.

"Listen, we are getting lots of complaints from the field. Our widgets are just too slow to handle the load. If we cannot fix them, the firm will go under."

Me: "How much faster do they need to be? And at what cost?"

If her answer is: "I need all the speed you can give me. At any cost."

Then I will check this brute into source control:

Code:
 0000 1000                00001 Base     fdb    Tab
                          00002
 0100                     00003          org    $100
                          00004
 0100                     00005 Start
 0100 4F              [2] 00006          clra
 0101 C6 04           [2] 00007          ldab   #1024/256
                          00008
 0103                     00009 Outer
 0103 DE 00           [4] 00010          ldx    Base
                          00011
 0105                     00012 Loop
 0105 A8 00           [5] 00013          eora   $00,X
 0107 A8 01           [5] 00014          eora   $01,X
 0109 A8 02           [5] 00015          eora   $02,X
 010B A8 03           [5] 00016          eora   $03,X
 010D A8 04           [5] 00017          eora   $04,X
 010F A8 05           [5] 00018          eora   $05,X
 0111 A8 06           [5] 00019          eora   $06,X
 0113 A8 07           [5] 00020          eora   $07,X
 0115 A8 08           [5] 00021          eora   $08,X
 0117 A8 09           [5] 00022          eora   $09,X
 0119 A8 0A           [5] 00023          eora   $0A,X
 011B A8 0B           [5] 00024          eora   $0B,X
 011D A8 0C           [5] 00025          eora   $0C,X
 011F A8 0D           [5] 00026          eora   $0D,X
 0121 A8 0E           [5] 00027          eora   $0E,X
 0123 A8 0F           [5] 00028          eora   $0F,X
 0125 A8 10           [5] 00029          eora   $10,X
 0127 A8 11           [5] 00030          eora   $11,X
 0129 A8 12           [5] 00031          eora   $12,X
 012B A8 13           [5] 00032          eora   $13,X
 012D A8 14           [5] 00033          eora   $14,X
 012F A8 15           [5] 00034          eora   $15,X
 0131 A8 16           [5] 00035          eora   $16,X
 0133 A8 17           [5] 00036          eora   $17,X
 0135 A8 18           [5] 00037          eora   $18,X
 0137 A8 19           [5] 00038          eora   $19,X
 0139 A8 1A           [5] 00039          eora   $1A,X
 013B A8 1B           [5] 00040          eora   $1B,X
 013D A8 1C           [5] 00041          eora   $1C,X
 013F A8 1D           [5] 00042          eora   $1D,X
 0141 A8 1E           [5] 00043          eora   $1E,X
 0143 A8 1F           [5] 00044          eora   $1F,X
 0145 A8 20           [5] 00045          eora   $20,X

BIG SNIP!

 02C5 A8 E0           [5] 00237          eora   $E0,X
 02C7 A8 E1           [5] 00238          eora   $E1,X
 02C9 A8 E2           [5] 00239          eora   $E2,X
 02CB A8 E3           [5] 00240          eora   $E3,X
 02CD A8 E4           [5] 00241          eora   $E4,X
 02CF A8 E5           [5] 00242          eora   $E5,X
 02D1 A8 E6           [5] 00243          eora   $E6,X
 02D3 A8 E7           [5] 00244          eora   $E7,X
 02D5 A8 E8           [5] 00245          eora   $E8,X
 02D7 A8 E9           [5] 00246          eora   $E9,X
 02D9 A8 EA           [5] 00247          eora   $EA,X
 02DB A8 EB           [5] 00248          eora   $EB,X
 02DD A8 EC           [5] 00249          eora   $EC,X
 02DF A8 ED           [5] 00250          eora   $ED,X
 02E1 A8 EE           [5] 00251          eora   $EE,X
 02E3 A8 EF           [5] 00252          eora   $EF,X
 02E5 A8 F0           [5] 00253          eora   $F0,X
 02E7 A8 F1           [5] 00254          eora   $F1,X
 02E9 A8 F2           [5] 00255          eora   $F2,X
 02EB A8 F3           [5] 00256          eora   $F3,X
 02ED A8 F4           [5] 00257          eora   $F4,X
 02EF A8 F5           [5] 00258          eora   $F5,X
 02F1 A8 F6           [5] 00259          eora   $F6,X
 02F3 A8 F7           [5] 00260          eora   $F7,X
 02F5 A8 F8           [5] 00261          eora   $F8,X
 02F7 A8 F9           [5] 00262          eora   $F9,X
 02F9 A8 FA           [5] 00263          eora   $FA,X
 02FB A8 FB           [5] 00264          eora   $FB,X
 02FD A8 FC           [5] 00265          eora   $FC,X
 02FF A8 FD           [5] 00266          eora   $FD,X
 0301 A8 FE           [5] 00267          eora   $FE,X
 0303 A8 FF           [5] 00268          eora   $FF,X
                          00269
 0305 7C 0000         [6] 00270          inc    Base
 0308 5A              [2] 00271          decb
 0309 27 03 (030E)    [4] 00272          beq    Done
                          00273
 030B 7E 0103         [3] 00274          jmp    Outer
                          00275
 030E                     00276 Done
                          00277
 1000                     00278          org    $1000
                          00279
 1000                     00280 Tab

5197 cycles


On the other hand, if she replied, "Twice as fast will do it."

Then I check in this beast:

Anything more gets into diminishing returns.

Code:
 0000 1000                00001 Base     fdb    Tab
 0002                     00002 Count    rmb    1
                          00003
 0100                     00004          org    $100
                          00005
 0100                     00006 Start
 0100 4F              [2] 00007          clra
 0101 C6 20           [2] 00008          ldab   #1024/32
 0103 D7 02           [4] 00009          stab   Count
                          00010
 0105                     00011 Outer
 0105 DE 00           [4] 00012          ldx    Base
                          00013
 0107 A8 00           [5] 00014          eora   $00,X
 0109 A8 01           [5] 00015          eora   $01,X
 010B A8 02           [5] 00016          eora   $02,X
 010D A8 03           [5] 00017          eora   $03,X
 010F A8 04           [5] 00018          eora   $04,X
 0111 A8 05           [5] 00019          eora   $05,X
 0113 A8 06           [5] 00020          eora   $06,X
 0115 A8 07           [5] 00021          eora   $07,X
 0117 A8 08           [5] 00022          eora   $08,X
 0119 A8 09           [5] 00023          eora   $09,X
 011B A8 0A           [5] 00024          eora   $0A,X
 011D A8 0B           [5] 00025          eora   $0B,X
 011F A8 0C           [5] 00026          eora   $0C,X
 0121 A8 0D           [5] 00027          eora   $0D,X
 0123 A8 0E           [5] 00028          eora   $0E,X
 0125 A8 0F           [5] 00029          eora   $0F,X
 0127 A8 10           [5] 00030          eora   $10,X
 0129 A8 11           [5] 00031          eora   $11,X
 012B A8 12           [5] 00032          eora   $12,X
 012D A8 13           [5] 00033          eora   $13,X
 012F A8 14           [5] 00034          eora   $14,X
 0131 A8 15           [5] 00035          eora   $15,X
 0133 A8 16           [5] 00036          eora   $16,X
 0135 A8 17           [5] 00037          eora   $17,X
 0137 A8 18           [5] 00038          eora   $18,X
 0139 A8 19           [5] 00039          eora   $19,X
 013B A8 1A           [5] 00040          eora   $1A,X
 013D A8 1B           [5] 00041          eora   $1B,X
 013F A8 1C           [5] 00042          eora   $1C,X
 0141 A8 1D           [5] 00043          eora   $1D,X
 0143 A8 1E           [5] 00044          eora   $1E,X
 0145 A8 1F           [5] 00045          eora   $1F,X
                          00046
 0147 D6 01           [3] 00047          ldab   Base+1
 0149 CB 20           [2] 00048          addb   #32
 014B D7 01           [4] 00049          stab   Base+1
 014D 26 03 (0152)    [4] 00050          bne    2f
 014F 7C 0000         [6] 00051          inc    Base
                          00052
 0152                     00053 2
 0152 7A 0002         [6] 00054          dec    Count
 0155 26 AE (0105)    [4] 00055          bne    Outer

6016 cycles


Can the 6502 even do this if it's life depended on it?

Edit: added some accidentally omitted code.


Last edited by BillG on Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BillG
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:16 am 
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litwr wrote:
BillG wrote:
The 6502 version is not even twice as fast ...
Your next two examples are a bit "uneasy" for me. The idea to use bytes for signed two byte arithmetic seems very contrived for me. IMHO it is possible to speed it up a bit for the 6502 but two accumulators generally give some advantage for the 6800 for two byte arithmetic.


Trust me, the signed arithmetic example is not contrived. I am working on compilers and that is a very possible case in a language permitting mixed variable sizes and signedness.

litwr wrote:
I am sure, for instance, that division for the 6800 is faster than for the 6502.


I have code for both but have not compared them against the other. My gut says the 6502 will be faster.

litwr wrote:
The FOR-loop statement code is too large for me and it relies on a compiler...


Again, that is a real-world example from my compilers.

litwr wrote:
You know that the Z80 can be even faster than the 6502 at the same frequency but generally it is more than 2 times slower.


You should know that the Z80 uses T cycles and M cycles. A T cycle is one tick of the system clock while an M cycle is the time for a memory access or a trip through the ALU. An M cycle typically consists of three or four T cycles.

litwr wrote:
IMHO we need more plain algorithms. I can propose several quite simple calculations for the 6502, it will be interesting to compare them with their implementations for the 6800.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6295


Cool! Assemblers at 10 paces...
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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:18 am 
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BillG wrote:
Can the 6502 even do this if it's life depended on it?

Turn up the clock speed? Bill Mensch had 6502's that'd run at 10MHz even in the 1970's.

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BillG
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:23 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
BillG wrote:
Can the 6502 even do this if it's life depended on it?

Turn up the clock speed? Bill Mensch had 6502's that'd run at 10MHz even in the 1970's.


True that!

But we are talking about code quality.

What if that story took place in 1979?

Edit: Not that WDC did not have a 10MHz part, but memory at that time was not so fast. 6502 and 680x systems maxed out at 2 MHz.
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1024MAK
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:10 am 
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I think overclocking was what was meant.

Certainly the NMOS 6502, the CMOS 65C02 as well as the WDC versions can all be overclocked to some extent.

But the NMOS Z80 and the CMOS Z80 microprocessors can also be overclocked.

I don’t know about other 8 bit MPUs.

Mark
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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:02 am 
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The earliest 6502 data sheet I have is from Synertek, from 1979, and it lists options rated to 3MHz. Bill Mensch said in an interview that to rate a 6502 for a given speed, he required it to work on the tester at twice that speed; so a 1MHz had to work at 2, a 2MHz had to work at 4, etc.. If one worked at 5.9MHz but not 6MHz, it could not be sold as a 3MHz part, but could be sold as a 2MHz part. He also said he really did have ones working at 10MHz in the 70's.

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