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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:56 pm 
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sark20,

Here is a link to a Rasberry Pi Zero:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-zero/

It has no video display.

It has no keyboard.

Why do you mention it?

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:19 pm 
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You're absolutely correct, Jim.

I apologize for the distraction. Good luck with the project.


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:55 pm 
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sark02 wrote:
Two three one two seven zero four zero zero seven two five one zero two six three.

You must listen to the same radio stations that I do! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:43 am 
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sark02,

I did not ask my question to stop the discussion.

You must have had an idea about how the Zero could get me to where I want to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:54 pm 
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You can think of the Pi Zero as a complex ARM-based chip on a minimal circuit board. The chip is an example of the sort of inexpensive modern chip which will offer
- sufficient RAM and ROM
- sufficiently useful CPU
- lots of I/O for keyboard or display or SD card interface
- USB interfaces
- timers and counters and so on

There are of course many choices from many manufacturers. TI's MSP430 might also be worth consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:59 pm 
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It seems that some of you fail to see the magnitude of the opportunity and the outrageous effect on upward mobility that the absence of secure email produces.

Hacking steels secrets form the smallest of businesses and thereby reduces upward mobility. So many systems can be hacked because the strongest methods are not used. Encryption can be based on complexity, or little-known math, or shared secrets. The latter is the most effective and is rarely used. There are political motives for this. Authorities fear terrorism. This needs to be addressed. I suggest that honest, law-abiding people who have a legitimate need for email security (such as technology entrepreneurs and many others) be allowed to invite vetting by the authorities and perhaps even registration to distinguish themselves from groups having nefarious motives.

Email does not have the privacy characteristic of postal mail. Postal mail does not proceed at the speed of business. A solution that protects the rights of individuals and groups needs to be found.

Any business wealthy enough to buy a server and a few employees can (and many do) hack the email messages of small technical businesses. The patent laws have changed to award patents to the first to file; no longer to the first to conceive. There is an imbalance here that needs to be addressed.

If all computers have wireless capability and can therefore be hacked, and everybody believes the propaganda concerning the fictional security of methods not involving shared secrets, or if they believe that shared secrets cannot be convenient, the increasing dominance of already-wealthy organizations will continue.

How would you solve the problem? Can you understand that there is one?

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:38 am 
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jamesadrian wrote:
It seems that some of you fail to see the magnitude of the opportunity and the outrageous effect on upward mobility that the absence of secure email produces.

There is no opportunity.

All of the large providers encrypt email transport. They are not required too, but they do. This is not message encryption, its transport encryption. Email has been one of the last system to have pervasive transport encryption, but all of the large providers do this today, and all of the popular server implementations support it. Does your provider or company support it? I don't know. But odds are high they can support it. This encryption protects the email message stream as they move from server to server.

All of the major email clients support encryption, and the major providers require the clients to use the encrypted streams. So, this means when your email program downloads Aunt Ethel's "Country Style Meatloaf" recipe, it's encrypted on the wire. This protects the messages from client to server.

At no point here are the individual messages encrypted, rather they are tunneled through encrypted connections. On the web this is the same as HTTPS vs HTTP.

If you wish to encrypt your individual email messages, you can do so today. It's easy and automatic, but requires setup and cooperation between you and the party you wish to send mail to. Gmail supports this out of the box, Apple Mail supports this out of the box. Thunderbird supports it out of the box. So does Outlook and Exchange. So, that's some silly proportion of potential email traffic that can handle encrypting individual email messages.

To use this feature, you must acquire a certificate that represents you, and, similarly, get a public certificate that represents the person(s) you are communicating with. You and your compatriots exchange certificates These certificates are used, leveraging Public Key Encryption, to individually encrypt email messages. The client software handles the encryption and decryption for you automatically. This is much easier today than it used to be.

The downside of encrypted mail messages is that they tend to be stored encrypted. This makes most email searching tools essentially worthless, as you can not search encrypted messages (certainly not efficiently). And, of course, sending an encrypted email message does not make you immune to traffic analysis ("They(tm)" can see that you sent a message to Bob, "They(tm)" simply can not read it). "They(tm)" can also read the subject of a normal encrypted message, so be careful with that as well.

Turns out that, in the end, most folks like to be able to search their email, so this is one nail in the "encrypt your email" movement. You can say, "Well, I'll just store in decrypted" and thats fine, but if that's your criteria, then the modern use to TLS encrypted back end traffic more than likely meets the same encryption requirement.

See, Back In The Day, the email was really set up as a bunch of relays, where messages could hop from server to server until it reached it's destination. This was a side effect of the early UUCP system, with lots of store and forward, and also older network topologies. Of course email can still do that, but in most case it doesn't. Rather, it leaves your client, hits your providers email server, who sends it directly to your recipients server, who then stores it for later retrieval by the receiver.

Back In The Day, we would rely on the concept of "relaying" to help move messages. With all of the spam and what not, that idea is pretty much dead. Every thing is basically direct, using vetted connections to trusted servers. Yes we still have spam, but a lot of that is from hacked accounts rather than rogue servers lying to you telling you that they're "yahoo.com". Any relaying is done on internal infrastructure isolated behind firewalls and what not rather than out on the wild west internet. So, it should be heartwarming to know the gazillion bot net infested Windows machines out there are spamming the globe through trusted, secure transmission pipes.

So, since relaying is dead, its reasonably safe to assume that your traffic, especially through the major providers, is encrypted during its entire journey. If your message is ending up at joe.com's email server that your friend Frank set up by parroting a 12 year old blog entry, then, yea, that last leg is likely not protected. Tell Frank to fix that.

Not even here, in the United States, are the TLA agencies sniffing encrypted TLS traffic. I mean, they are doing that, but they can't really do much with it. If they want your Gmail account, they'll ask Google. They don't need to decrypt it.

So what does all this mean?

It means that anyone interested in end to end messaging security a) likely already has it and b) they can take it the extra mile through simple processes.

But heres the news.

Nobody cares.

Enthusiasts care. Political Dissidents care. Criminals and Terrorists care. (It's a shame the groups are in the same boat, but such is the way of dual use technology) But Humanity in the large? No. They don't care.

The public at large may feel warm and tingly if you told them about the channel level encryption going on. They'll probably feel safer. They should, they ARE safer. I can't speak to people in other countries, I can only talk to folks in the modern western world.

But do they care enough to actively participate in message security? More importantly, are the people they communicate with willing to actively participate? You may want to encrypt your messages, but what of Aunt Ethel. Is she on board? You willing to train her? Support her with technical problems? Willing to scale this support to you entire family and friends?

Most answer that "no". Even with the modern software, it's a PITA.

My company sells secure messaging for medical data. Patient records, referrals, etc. It relies on open standards (including all of the ones I've talked about so far, plus others), and it's a combination of not just encryption but an entire trust relationship among the participants. We send the message over the open internet, but they're individually shrouded and encrypted. The end user experience is just like normal email -- they don't have to do a thing, and it works seamlessly for them. We move millions of messages a month among thousands of providers and interface with other vendors systems. You can ALMOST achieve this with off the shelf clients and software, but in the end, its a PITA. So, it's much easier for folks to sign up with someone like us.

My personal phone is encrypted and a brick without my passcode. If you have a modern phone (< 3 years old), odds are yours is too. My personal machine is the same way. All 5TBs of storage is encrypted. No password, no data. Steal my computer, you get a hard drive filled with white noise. So, I'm not particularly motivated to store encrypted messages. I like being able to search my email.

Anyway, that's why there is no opportunity. It's already being done, you just don't realize it, and most be people aren't willing to take active steps to work the problem anyway. Finally, of course, it's just so much easier to simply infect the machine or send a slew of spear fishing emails at folks to get them to "confirm their account information before we repossess your home", or whatever the email with links to Eastern Estonia says (where everyone know Wells Fargo hosts their servers...).


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:24 am 
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There are several possible conversations here:
- building a thing using a 6502
- building a thing
- spotting a market opportunity
- explaining and selling crypto as a product
- the role of crypto in society

The first of those is certainly on-topic here. The second is probably OK depending on context. The others are further from being on topic. If a person raises those other points in conversation here, they might or might not get a good conversation. They certainly cannot demand anyone's attention and still less can they demand their enthusiasm.


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:58 am 
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jamesadrian wrote:
It seems that some of you fail to see the magnitude of the opportunity and the outrageous effect on upward mobility that the absence of secure email produces.

When this topic originated, I though it was going to be another discussion on coming up with a device that we could promote as a way to get people interested in hobbying with the 6502. The topic morphed, in my opinion, into a one-side promotion of someone's idea about something that has little to do with the 6502.

Mr. Adrian, as whartung noted, methods to protect mail while it is in transit already exist, and there is no opportunity in promoting what you call secure E-mail. If there were such an opportunity, it would have been seized long ago by companies with the resources to make it happen. It hasn't happened.

Furthermore, I fail to see where this discussion has any relevance to the purpose of 6502.org and would like to see it come to an end.

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:10 am 
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I'd want to be fairly careful here: while this particular thread has gone off in an odd direction, there are many people here with quite wide interests, and many of us - me included - will sometimes go off in a direction that enough people find interesting that it's a conversation. I believe we're not so inundated with traffic here that we need to be terribly strict about what's on-topic. It's good to have conversations.

As a second point, I believe enthusiasm is a powerful force, and it's worth conserving. It's good to help someone with their project or idea, and it's not good to reduce their enthusiasm by telling them they have no chance of success. If a project seems not to be viable, best to leave it alone and see how it plays out. Help, but don't hinder.

As a third point, I think pretty much all successful projects we see here are kicked off by one person acting alone. Sometimes - not too often - a project will gain several contributors. What seems not to work out well is to take an idea, start a discussion, and assume that a project will start itself out of that discussion. Discussions can be very useful, but to get started, someone has to start. Ideas are relatively cheap, compared to projects underway - and finished projects are even scarcer.


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:02 pm 
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whartung,

All published encryption methods not involving shared secrets can be cracked.

It does not matter if millions of people don't care. Hacking hurts small business more than it hurts big business. Millions of people do care.

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Some of you seem to feel that the 6502 is not fast enough. You are wrong, but would you be more inclined to like this device if it used a fast processor and had a cross assembler for 6502 programmers?

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:31 pm 
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Please pardon my skepticism, but have you any proof that the 6502 is powerful enough for this purpose?
And this next is coming real close to rudeness, but what are you after here? A bit of knowledge to get your project going? Ideas? A team to help you build this thing? I'm not understanding why you've come to this particular community about this.

I think what some people have picked up on here is that you want USB on this thing. The problem with that(as outlined a while back in this topic) is that it doesn't make a lot of sense to use USB with the 6502, as the USB support will likely be implemented using a more powerful processor. And at that point, why is the 6502 necessary? It would probably be simpler and cheaper to implement the whole lot on the one processor.


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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:00 am 
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DerTrueForce,

There are several, if not many, projects that can profitably use the 6502, slow as it it.

I am interested in the ones that involve a USB port. If the 6502 were a tenth as fast as it is, it could still run a USB port. We have a different idea about the hardware design.

I am looking for people who like programming in 6502 assembly language, and also some who understand the USB port. This site is called 6502.org. To me, it makes sense to try to find people here.

If nobody thinks it is sane to use a 6502 for a USB port device, then I have had another question: Would you like the device better if it used a faster processor and a cross assembler for 6502 programmers?

Very sincerely,

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 Post subject: Re: Stand-Alone Devices
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:39 am 
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how do you intend to use the USB? input from keyboard/mouse/touchpad/etc? Or read/write USB storage? or something else?


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