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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:37 am 
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(You might want to read the adventures of a UK101 build in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1795)
One takeaway from that is to use a canned crystal oscillator, not a crystal oscillator circuit. Something like this:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:43 pm 
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There's another minimal design, by Halldor Karl Hognason but his site seems to be mostly offline. Some of it can be seen here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ns&strip=1
or in the cached previews here
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site% ... url%3A6502
(you may need to click "text only" because the images won't load)

If anyone has a mirror which includes the schematics, please let me know!

Cheers
Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:05 pm 
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alkopop79 wrote:
Dear all,




I'm planning to build a 6502 microcomputer. I'd like to keep
the project cheap and simple. I work part time for very
little money - an eprom burner for +100 dollars is definitely
not an option. However I have TTL logic chips, breadboards,
oscilloscope and a 6502. I want something simple as a Cosmac
Elf and programmable with switches or hex keypad. Also, I
would preferably build it on breadboard first or WW. I wonder
if my requirements are realistic? Where can I find circuit
diagrams for a similar project? 


You can save up and buy a kit from Apatco. They have two different versions.

http://www.apatco.com/shop/

You could also switch to ARM. I believe the markers of ARM started out with the 6502. I'm trying to remember but the makers of ARM tried to make a chip faster than the 6502 and there are support chips around the 6502. ARM is basically a design without those external chips and I have to spend time reading and looking it up but they may have included what is on those support chips inside of ARM. ARM has a real CPU and you could probably get one working that is 180 MHZ with a large FLASH memory and RAM whereas you aren't going to get a faster 65XX family chip than 20 MHZ. ARM is in mobile phones and many devices and I think the price is lower than 6502 prices.

You can get an STM32 Cortex chip for about $16 plus shipping or you can get a $5 Stellaris chip from Texas Instruments during their promotion and then it will probably go up to $10 or more. There are also development boards on Ebay and I just ordered a free chip from Coridium (I got one of the last ones) which runs BASIC on an ARM chip.

ARM is also fast enough to connect to TFT screens and screens from the iPhone if you can get a connector for the latter or if you can build one from Eagle.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:20 am 
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I kinda like the Apatco one. It's just it's not cheap and I want to build it myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:02 pm 
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alkopop79 wrote:
I kinda like the Apatco one. It's just it's not cheap and I want to build it myself.


I want to build a computer myself. I think you could build one with an arm chip. For $1.21 to $1.51 a chip (depending where you get it), you can breadboard an ARM chip, you would need a $20 FTDI cable or a USB dongle, a zener diode or a 78L33 Linear regulator and you can program it in BASIC or C:

http://www.coridium.us/ARMhelp/index.ht ... inout.html

You would need to provide a breadboard and a few wires but it is easy and you can have more memory and speed than a 6502.

The alternative would to get a $16 development board and either a Jtag connector or ST link.

The other alternative is to invest in Arduino or some other microcontroller.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Nothing wrong with an ARM homebuild, but as the memory and peripherals are integrated it's a higher level challenge than an 8-bit homebuild, where you get to make the busses and the decode, and architect the memory map and bootstrap.

I'm supportive of both types of project, but they are different things. The 8bit might be a bit more challenging, but you'll learn more. The 32-bit will of course deliver a faster machine.

Cheers
Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Thanks guys! I teach Arduino and love it. Still, I want to build something from the scratch and understand every single bit (pun not intended) of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:37 pm 
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BigEd, where do you source your components from in the UK?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Umm, I don't do a huge amount of electronics, but Digikey and Farnell both appear on my radar - and Maplins for small-scale urgent supplies. (I have a note-to-self that CPC is often much cheaper than Farnell even when their things arrive in Farnell packaging)
Then there's RS. Whatever works out cheaper, postage included!

I bought a few bits and bobs recently from hobbytronics.co.uk, which worked out well even though they seem small-scale players.

Not sure how much that helps!
Cheers
Ed

Edit: as BDD points out below, also Mouser operate in the UK


Last edited by BigEd on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:33 pm 
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alkopop79 wrote:
Thanks guys! I teach Arduino and love it. Still, I want to build something from the scratch and understand every single bit (pun not intended) of it.

Then grab your 65C02 or 65C816 and start soldering! By the time you have it working you indeed will have a detailed understanding of every single bit, byte...and mistake. :lol:

Seriously, building around an ARM, 65C134 or other microcontroller is too much like building a PC, where, as another member put it, you are assembling (not building) macroscopic components. That's screwdriver work, which isn't at all the same as taking some chips, capacitors, RAM, etc., scratch-designing a circuit, and then soldering the mess together and seeing if it goes or blows.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:59 pm 
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BigEd wrote:
Umm, I don't do a huge amount of electronics, but Digikey and Farnell both appear on my radar - and Maplins for small-scale urgent supplies. (I have a note-to-self that CPC is often much cheaper than Farnell even when their things arrive in Farnell packaging)
Then there's RS. Whatever works out cheaper, postage included!

I bought a few bits and bobs recently from hobbytronics.co.uk, which worked out well even though they seem small-scale players.

Not sure how much that helps!
Cheers
Ed

Digi-Key has a very extensive selection, especially in glue logic and such. However, they have discontinued the WDC product line and have been removed from WDC's distributor page. Both Mouser Electronics and Jameco Electronics stock the WDC lineup. Mouser also has an extensive glue logic selection equal to that of Digi-Key and is my preference over Digi-Key for most component purchases (we have open accounts with all three companies).

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:37 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Seriously, building around an ARM, 65C134 or other microcontroller is too much like building a PC, where, as another member put it, you are assembling (not building) macroscopic components. That's screwdriver work, which isn't at all the same as taking some chips, capacitors, RAM, etc., scratch-designing a circuit, and then soldering the mess together and seeing if it goes or blows.[/size]


I haven't done it myself, but I have to agree with this. The modern micro controllers are so self contained, they literally need little more than power to get something up and running. It's an exciting development for folks that just want to get stuff done that need a micro processor, but pretty far from the concept of "building a computer".

Now, we can get all grognardy, and "get off my lawn", and "if you're not grinding gears, you don't know what computer design is", and "if you're not weaving, you're not coding", so it's a matter of how far you want to take it. The beauty is that you can take it all the way from off the shelf boards (heck I think even Radio Shack is selling Arduino kits now), through build SBCs with CPU down to hand crafting CPUs out of TTL gates to burn on to a PGA, or simply wrap together. You can do whatever you want any where along that spectrum, at home, with data from the internet. It pretty much stops cold at making transistors at home from beach sand. Home foundries aren't quite common place.

That's why it boils down to what you're really interested in learning and accomplishing, from design, to interfacing, to code, etc.

That's one reason I went the simulator route. I started out thinking of building a board, but ended up creating a simulator. That helped scratch itch I had. I still think a simple SBC similar to POCv1 would be interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:48 pm 
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(ah yes, I forgot mouser - I haven't used them but they have a UK operation.)


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:04 pm 
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whartung wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Seriously, building around an ARM, 65C134 or other microcontroller is too much like building a PC, where, as another member put it, you are assembling (not building) macroscopic components. That's screwdriver work, which isn't at all the same as taking some chips, capacitors, RAM, etc., scratch-designing a circuit, and then soldering the mess together and seeing if it goes or blows.

I haven't done it myself, but I have to agree with this. The modern micro controllers are so self contained, they literally need little more than power to get something up and running.

Vidi all the excitement over the Raspberry PI, which when analyzed from a "microscopic" point of view, is a slightly eccentric version of a PC—it's about as opaque from a hardware point of view as your typical x86 box. From a hardware perspective, I don't think there's all that much to be learned from the Pi. If it's programming you're interested in, load Linux on a PC, fire up gcc and start coding.

Quote:
Now, we can get all grognardy...

"Grognardy?" Never heard that one before. :D

Quote:
..."if you're not grinding gears, you don't know what computer design is", and "if you're not weaving, you're not coding", so it's a matter of how far you want to take it.

The more you can do for yourself, as opposed to getting stuff that others have done, the more you will learn. Just about all of my computer colleagues are completely at sea when hardware issues arise and think I'm a Houdini because I can fix that sort of stuff. The irony is that when I started out 42-odd years ago, you weren't considered a true technician unless you could not only program the stuff but could fix it when it broke. Not any more.

As I say on the home page of my POC website, "...thinking, planning and building the POC hardware will be a constant mental challenge..." How much of a mental challenge would it have been if I had purchased a Raspberry PI, installed Linux and logged in? Or built around an ARM or 65C256 microcontroller? Just how much would I have learned?

Quote:
I still think a simple SBC similar to POCv1 would be interesting.

So, what are you waiting for? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner needs help
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:24 pm 
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In addition to this advantage, the Pi is inexpensive and has more I/O than today's PCs, which typically lack a parallel port.
(But really, it would be better to promote what you think is a good way to do things, rather than rubbishing someone else's choice.)
Cheers, Ed


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