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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2024 8:02 am 
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In this article, mention is made of the Voyager 1 space probe that was launched 47 years ago and, incredibly, is still functioning, although with some difficulty.  The probe is now 15 billion miles (24 billion kilometers) from Earth and complicating things, it takes nearly two days after a command is sent to it before an acknowledgement is received.  Talk about propagation delay!  It’s all pretty amazing, when you consider the age of the technology, and the many things that can go wrong.

Voyager 1 had a velocity of over 38,000 MPH (61,300 KPH) when it traveled through the heliopause and entered interstellar space.  At that speed, over 17,000 years will be needed for the probe to travel one light-year—and the nearest star, Alpha Centauri, is over four light years from Earth.  Barring a collision with some object, Voyager 1 will be on an eternal voyage, literally traveling until the end of time.  :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:02 pm 
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Now that's engineering.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2024 9:04 pm 
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commodorejohn wrote:
Now that's engineering.

Yes it is, especially when you consider just how hostile space is to man and his machines.

When I was a youngster, I avidly read science fiction and the tales of people going on deep space voyages.  Asimov’s stories, in particular, were fascinating, even if I didn’t fully understand them at the time (in my teenage years, I read his “I, Robot” stories and was deeply impressed with the quality of his writing and the fertility of his imagination).

That said, by the time I was 10 years old, I knew enough about space and celestial mechanics to understand why the stories about deep space travel were pure fantasy.  Science fiction writers often cheerfully ignored minor technical details, such as intense radiation exposure, hard vacuum, mind-boggling distances, the limiting speed of light, and all that other stuff that gets in the way of going on a weekend excursion to, say, Jupiter—never mind what the gas giant’s gravity will do to you when you get there.  :shock:

While I seldom say “never” when it comes to science and technology, I think I can safely say the human race, as we know it, will never venture to the edge of the Solar System, let alone enter interstellar space.  We can’t go fast enough with any known means of propulsion to cover the distance in a reasonable amount of time.  Even if traveling at the pace of Voyager 1 (~38,000 MPH, nearly 20 times the speed of a .30 caliber rifle bullet), a trip to Mars would likely take an absolute minimum of 55 days—if Earth and Mars are exactly in opposition (which only happens at two year intervals).  All sorts of logistical problems would have to be solved, not the least of which would be carrying enough food and other supplies to sustain the crew for the 110 day round-trip, as well as any time spent on or near the Red Planet.  Unlike embarking on a trip to the heliopause and back, a crewed voyage to Mars is technically possible right now, but I don’t think it will happen in any of our lifetimes.

Now, prove me wrong, NASA!  :D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:58 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:
Now that's engineering.

Yes it is, especially when you consider just how hostile space is to man and his machines.


Yep, they engineered that stuff to be rock solid. To use an age old phrase, they just don't build them like they used to.

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When I was a youngster, I avidly read science fiction and the tales of people going on deep space voyages.  Asimov’s stories, in particular, were fascinating, even if I didn’t fully understand them at the time (in my teenage years, I read his “I, Robot” stories and was deeply impressed with the quality of his writing and the fertility of his imagination).


Mmmm.... Asimov...... Spent a lot of time at airports reading the various Asimov stories.

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Science fiction writers often cheerfully ignored minor technical details, such as intense radiation exposure, hard vacuum, mind-boggling distances, the limiting speed of light, and all that other stuff that gets in the way of going on a weekend excursion to, say, Jupiter—never mind what the gas giant’s gravity will do to you when you get there.  :shock:


The radiation of Jupiter would kill you before the gravity would. I had looked into the details of having a story set on a moon of a gas giant, and Jupiter was just a no go place for the most part. Saturn on the other hand, it's a bit friendlier.

It goes to show how much we tend to forget all that the magnetosphere that Earth has does for us.

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While I seldom say “never” when it comes to science and technology, I think I can safely say the human race, as we know it, will never venture to the edge of the Solar System, let alone enter interstellar space.  We can’t go fast enough with any known means of propulsion to cover the distance in a reasonable amount of time.  Even if traveling at the pace of Voyager 1 (~38,000 MPH, nearly 20 times the speed of a .30 caliber rifle bullet), a trip to Mars would likely take an absolute minimum of 55 days—if Earth and Mars are exactly in opposition (which only happens at two year intervals).  All sorts of logistical problems would have to be solved, not the least of which would be carrying enough food and other supplies to sustain the crew for the 110 day round-trip, as well as any time spent on or near the Red Planet.  Unlike embarking on a trip to the heliopause and back, a crewed voyage to Mars is technically possible right now, but I don’t think it will happen in any of our lifetimes.

Now, prove me wrong, NASA!  :D


To quote another great Sci Fi author:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." -- Arthur C. Clarke

;)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:47 am 
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We could argue about the merits of various SF authors all day - I'm a big fan of 'golden age', though I never particularly liked Asimov's style.

As pointed out above, Jupiter is not a particularly healthy place to be, but I expected by now that people would be all over the asteroid belt - and in particular, working around Saturn. It has those great gaudy rings, conveniently already at orbital velocity, made of ice, and in convenient-sized chunks to launch at Mars...

Get enough water on Mars and it rapidly[1] becomes a livable place - water vapour at high altitude disassociates into free oxygen and hydrogen under the influence of solar radiation, and the mean free speed of the hydrogen means it escapes the atmosphere while the oxygen stays behind. And water at lower levels remains, well, wet water.

Neil

[1] Well, a few hundred years depending how fast you can start kicking icebergs on their way. But there is a small moon's worth of water ice in Saturn's rings, and it's surely worth the wait to have another basket to put our species' eggs, no?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:05 am 
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Yuri wrote:
To quote another great Sci Fi author:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right.  When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." -- Arthur C. Clarke

Yep, I recall that from years ago.  I’m not a “distinguished but elderly scientist,” just elderly, but from my current vantage point looking at the space technology we have and how long it took to get it working (and of course, disasters have killed people in the process), I am not foreseeing any trips to the heliopause.  Clarke’s aphorism was from a time when we were still in the early stages of space exploration.  We’re well past that point.  Things could change, something new could be devised that solves, among other things, the problem of attaining the hyper-velocities need for long voyages.  However, most of the big leaps in space technology have already occurred.

In particular, solving the logistics of a long space voyage is something that has consistently eluded science.  It took Voyager 1 nearly 36 years to reach the heliopause, whilst traveling at more than 38,000 MPH.  Imagine a space ship that is hurtling out of the Solar System at that speed over such a long period of time...with people on board.  How do you replenish the food supply, the water supply, deal with the psychological issues that will arise on such a long voyage, etc., etc..  What about medical emergencies?  It’s not as though you can dispatch an ambulance if a crew member suffers a life-threatening medical event.

Until we can figure out how to sustain a crew over such a long period, I says it ain’t gonna happen.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:34 am 
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Plenty of SF regarding many of the issues of generation ships... :p

Neil


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:55 pm 
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I'm reminded of a piece it turns out I've mentioned before, in a different OT thread
BigEd wrote:
... I was going to link to Ron Garrett's interesting (and sad) piece about Lisp at JPL. But it turns out he's also done a presentation on the subject, so here's a different link which encompasses both:
http://irreal.org/blog/?p=748
The original:
http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:03 pm 
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Judging from what I can gather from the timeline of that rant, I'm guessing these rules came about after Lisp was gone from JPL and C-like languages became the only ones allowed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power ... tical_Code

These rules have come up here before, of course. Now I'm wondering if the demise of Lisp had anything to do with how hard it is to statically analyze what it's doing.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:20 pm 
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Ah, a complement to MISRA...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 3:47 pm 
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Of course now I'm wondering why NASA has all these guidelines for how to "safely" use an imperative language in the first place. Why not create a new language whose grammar and syntax makes it at least difficult, ideally impossible, to write problematic code in the first place? Why all the emphasis on after-the-fact checking tools?

1) Don't allow GOTO by not having it in the first place. For recursion, the first thought that occurs to me is that at run time, entry to a function first examines the stack to see if it's already there. Just in case static analysis misses this. A bit more time-consuming, yes, but contemporary processors are very fast.

2) Give loops a default bound. Explicitly change it if necessary. Make this built-in so everyone knows one is always there. Kind of like default array bounds in BASIC. You don't have to rely on them, but they're always there.

3) Don't like the heap? Don't have one. Darn thing fragments anyway.

4) It's easy enough to figure out the maximum number of characters on a page. Have the compiler barf if you try to feed it more than that.

5) Not sure how to automate this, aside from looking to see how they are often used in practice and trying to get the run-time package to check for the most common cases anyway.

6) Make it really hard to access data outside its declaration scope. I kind of like how in Python I can read a variable as long as it's in a higher scope, but I can't write it unless I somehow note that it's not in the current scope. That could be pushed to make both reading and writing an out of scope variable painful, and hence avoided whenever possible.

7) Make checking return value mandatory. Compile time failure if not done.

8) Don't like the preprocessor? Don't have one. It's mostly a kind of syntactic sugar anyway.

9) Fine, don't allow more than one level of de-reference (you can't even write such a thing). And don't make functions first-class objects that can be indirectly referenced.

10) Have the compiler sulk and refuse to create an object file if it sees the least little thing it doesn't like. That would lead to a lot of programmer frustration, but hey, we're talking safety here!

There could be a "C-NASA" version of the language, if you like. Might even be possible to eliminate some of the ambiguities along the way. No more "undefined behavior" quirks.

I'm just going to note that the software for the Voyageur probes was created decades before these guidelines came into place. There was probably some system of checking in place even at that time. What happened to those? They seem to have worked well. Are the ones in place now easier, simpler or more effective?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:43 am 
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This is what happens if you build things without planned obsolescence :lol:
Now it's just "build to blast" everywhere instead of "build to last", and that's kind of sad.

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